Caregiving as a Working Professional | Up for Discussion with Grace Cheng

In this episode of CB Up for Discussion, we are excited to welcome Grace Cheng, the founder and CEO of AgeWhale, a social enterprise dedicated to supporting family caregivers of older adults. Inspired by her personal experience caring for her grandparents, Grace shares her journey and the motivation behind creating AgeWhale in July 2023.

Grace discusses the challenges faced by caregivers, particularly in the workplace, where support for elder care is often lacking compared to parental leave. She highlights the urgent need for awareness and resources to help caregivers navigate their responsibilities while balancing their careers. With an aging population, Grace emphasizes that caregiving is a universal experience that requires collective attention and action.

Throughout the episode, Grace explores:

• The complexities of caregiving and the emotional toll it can take.
• The current state of caregiver support in workplaces and the gaps that exist.
• Best practices from around the world that can serve as models for improving support systems.
• The importance of fostering a culture where caregivers feel comfortable sharing their struggles.

Join us for an insightful conversation about the vital role of caregivers and how we can all contribute to creating a more supportive environment for those who dedicate their lives to caring for others. Tune in now!

[Chris Mack]

Hello, I'm Chris, Programme Manager for Wellbeing at Community Business and I'll be your podcast host for today. Today we are delighted to be up for discussion with Grace Cheng, founder and CEO of AgeWell. Inspired by her experience caring for her grandparents, Grace founded AgeWell in July 2023 to help families navigate elder care.

 

AgeWell provides care concierge services that enable caregivers to better balance their family responsibilities and career advancements. Grace's expertise in caregiving has been recognised through the invitations to speak at TEDxTinHallWomen 2023, as well as being an advisor in Resolve's Fellowship Programme and participation in the Professional Fellows Programme 2024 sponsored by the U.S. Department of State. Grace, thank you for joining us on up for discussion.

 

[Grace Cheng]

Thank you, Chris. Thank you for having me.

 

[Chris Mack]

Great, cool. So, Grace, I was wondering if you could introduce yourself a little bit. We'd love to know a little bit more about your background, but I guess really what's the motivation behind AgeWell?

 

[Grace Cheng]

For sure. So yeah, hi everyone. So I'm Grace, the founder of AgeWell.

 

So we are a social enterprise that's dedicated to support family caregivers of older people. So we help family caregivers to navigate and manage elder care. But before founding AgeWell, my background has always been in the social business sector.

 

I worked in the Fair Employment Agency for eight years to support migrant domestic workers to find jobs ethically, fairly, without any agency fees. And in that experience, I got to work with a lot of families and a lot of migrant domestic workers who are often hired to take care of children, take care of elderly. And I got to witness how complicated it is, right?

 

Like in a caregiving relationship, even when it's supposedly an employment, it's paid. And when it comes to caregiving personally, yeah, she kindly introduced me. Like it's all really inspired by my personal experience caring for my grandparents.

 

My grandparents were the ones who raised me and I was very, very close with them. So unfortunately, when my grandparents, their health started to decline, yeah, it's just very natural for me to step in to become one of their caregivers. By the time I was very young, like too young, 26 years old, and I was completely unprepared for the role.

 

Like, I don't think I was ever taught like in school. We don't really talk about it anytime. So you were just kind of thrown into this role all of a sudden when there's a health crisis.

 

There were a lot of things that I wish I could have done differently. Yeah. And that really was the story behind H-Well.

 

My grandparents, they have passed away already, but I still have my parents and they're ageing. I am also ageing every day. So I still see, you know, this is still a very relevant topic to me.

 

And I believe to a lot of us as well, like caregiving is something pretty universal, right? Like we're born to be a care recipient when we're a baby. And you never know like when you would need a caregiver again or become a caregiver.

 

So this really my hope that for H-Well, we can continue to support family caregivers to make this whole journey less lonely, less stressful and more a positive experience.

 

[Chris Mack]

No, that's really great. And I think a lot of people will probably resonate the position that you found yourself in and kind of trying to navigate, you know, their own journeys, trying to learn a whole bunch of different roles, essentially, that they're going to take up. So, you know, given your lived experience and very clear motivation to sort of starting H-Well, how would you kind of describe the current level of support offered to caregivers, specifically actually in the workplace?

 

Yeah.

 

[Grace Cheng]

Unfortunately, I think caregiver support in the workplace is still not very common. I think there is more support maybe like for parental care, because at least in Hong Kong, we have some legal requirement, right? Like you need to give maternity leave, you need to give paternity leave.

 

But when it comes to elder care in particular, it's really behind in a legal aspect, but also on a practical level. Yeah, I believe a lot of us, particularly maybe, you know, I'm born and raised in Hong Kong, I'm Chinese, in Asian culture, right? Like it's kind of expected of us to just take care of your parents and your grandparents.

 

It's often seen as a private family matter. So not a lot of us would publicly talk about it in the workplace where we think, oh, it's more professional setting, we shouldn't bring it up. It's just our own responsibility.

 

And for the management, for the leadership, because you know, there's no conversation. So they also don't necessarily see that there's actually this huge magnitude of caregiving needs among the employees. So I believe I saw like, you know, a study from the Education University like last year.

 

So they interviewed a lot of companies and working caregivers. And the result turns out, almost 90% of the caregivers, they don't even know like, what are the kind of supportive measures are available in the workplace. They don't even know like, if it's available at all, or where to find them.

 

So I think there's a huge gap like in information and in the kind of support measures like in the workplace. And we still have a long, long way to go. Yeah.

 

[Chris Mack]

It's really interesting you bring up, you mentioned different caregiver roles as well, because you mentioned very, I guess, more commonly supported is the parental roles. But caregiver roles, as you mentioned, can branch out to many different roles, depending on your family circumstances, or you might be supporting friends as well. And then that gap between what people are experiencing in their own lives, that comes into work, doesn't it?

 

Yeah, of course. So if that's not being addressed or supported at work, it's going to actually affect both the individual and the place of workers themselves. And I think if we look at Asia, as you mentioned, and we talked about, you mentioned around an ageing population, we're going to see an increase in people taking up caregiver roles.

 

It might not be a concern for now. It probably is a concern for now. But we will most likely therefore see an increase in that demand for support.

 

Now, what do you feel, seeing that we are in the position that we are, what do you feel are the immediate steps to take? And I guess an additional question to that is, what longer term goals do we actually need to set now, seeing of where we are in the workplace, as a society, globally as well? What are your thoughts around that?

 

[Grace Cheng]

Yeah, you're totally right. I'm actually quite surprised that I thought we still would have a few years to handle this situation. But I was looking up the statistics from the Hong Kong government, the population census.

 

Turns out the older age dependency ratio among working population already exceeded the children dependency ratio three years ago. So among the working population, more of us are taking care of more older people than children. And in the same study at the Education University, they also interviewed about caregivers, who they are caring for.

 

And among that, 40% of them, they're caring for their spouses, for their parents. Another 40% caring for their grandparents or older family members. And only around 30% are caring for children.

 

So I was also quite shocked when I see the data. Because you would think, when we talk about caregiver support, definitely parents would be the majority. But turns out, from all this bits and pieces of data, we can tell that there's actually a silent majority of caregivers out there.

 

So I think, first of all, the immediate first step is really to acknowledge and address that this is something that has been overlooked for too long. And we really have to bring more awareness, shed more light on how these family caregivers of older people, what their struggles are, what their needs are. Because I think, when I talk to some company, HR department or DEI lead, they are not too sure how many caregivers are there in the company.

 

So without that kind of insight and information, how they realistically could better support the caregivers. So I think that having more data and research would definitely be the first step. But in the long run, I also see how, you know, for the workplace culture, right, for caregivers to feel comfortable sharing about what they're struggling with.

 

I think that requires a very strong culture that they can feel that being a caregiver is accepted, it's respected, it's not something that they need to fear, that would get them penalised if they talk about it. And of course, finally, on a policy level, like how we could have more structure to the support measures. Like, I think, again, referring to the same educational education university study, so interview employers as well.

 

So they ask, you know, what family-friendly measures you're currently providing for your employees. And the most common measures are compassionate leave, marriage leave, and five-day workweek. So those are the three measures that are most popular right now.

 

But as you can imagine, like, they may not necessarily tailor to elder care, or those may not be used that often. I hope you don't get married too many times. Anyway, so I think having more formalised caregiver support included in the employee benefit system, and having more communication with the employees, right, was available.

 

I know a lot of companies, they also offer employee assistance programme. But at the same time, we also know that oftentimes, they're very underutilised. So how we can really encourage, you know, the employees to make use of the support and actually benefit, like, from the company, yeah, support.

 

[Chris Mack]

I think just reflecting on that, almost like a stepped approach to it, number one is acknowledging and I think it was, I'll share with you some of the readings that I did. And I was quite, the person who was supporting me with this research as well, we were quite surprised in terms of what we brought up. You know, the United Nations defines an ageing population, if the share of its population aged 65 and above crosses 7%.

 

And then it's considered aged if it's 14%. And then it's super aged if it's 21%. A lot of areas, certainly across Asia, already in the super aged definition.

 

So the fact that we still need to have that step to acknowledge, it's almost as if we're probably a little bit behind, aren't we? And then I really understand that the measures in place, we've got to be selective what measures we take into place, because the measures that we use, whether it's compassionate leave, or whether it's other different types of leave, does that reflect on other caregiver roles? I think that's a really important point to raise within that.

 

And then, as always, leveraging what people already have in place, the support mechanisms in place, but also looking into other support services. And so I think that's a really quite clear sort of stepped approach. So if we reflect on corporations, companies, workplaces, whether it's Asia, maybe it's globally, or maybe we'll take it bigger.

 

If there are any regions across the world, who's doing it well? Who's setting a good example at the moment?

 

[Grace Cheng]

Yeah, I think globally, of course, every country, we have different healthcare systems, different elder care systems, our demographics are different. So it's hard to really compare apple to apple. But at the same time, we also see some best practises or some promising practises abroad, like in the US, in the UK, like in Australia, I think there have been more and more focused elder care tailored support.

 

So I think one thing that I personally struggled with when I became a caregiver, is how complicated the whole system is, right? Not only the public service, but among all the different private service providers out there, who should I choose? What's right for my family?

 

Can I afford them? And making all those liaison and audit coordination is very, very time consuming on top of a full time job in caring for my grandparents. So I've seen, you know, more of those examples overseas that those companies would become like your navigator, right?

 

Like they help you to analyse what's available to you, your family in particular, and then help you to make all those arrangements. So I think that's really helped lifting a lot of burden of the caregiver. But I also see that within, you know, companies, there's still a lot of things I believe they could do.

 

I know quite a lot of big corporations, they have their own employee resource group. So how, you know, people can leverage that, maybe make it an information hub, so they could share, like all the different tips and experiences when it comes to eldercare. And I think the other thing when we talk about culture, right, like, so I believe for a lot of managers or leaders, like they also need support, like, you know, when it comes to supporting their employees with caregiving responsibility, then currently, there may be some resources for them when it comes to parents.

 

But when it comes to eldercare is a whole other kind of area. So I totally see how they also need the support to, you know, really make the workplace a more caregiver-friendly environment. And then lastly, there's also been, I think, the other, like group, like of caregiver that maybe is also even more neglected are those who have left the workplace, maybe temporarily, to care for their loved ones.

 

But after the caregiving journey ended, when they tried to re-enter the workforce, like, so what would be some kind of reintegration support and process that could help them to make the transition easier? I think we have similar things for mothers or fathers when they go back into the workplace. But I don't think, like, this exists in Hong Kong yet.

 

I think I've heard something similar in Singapore. But yeah, like, I think it's still, like, a very new area for us to continue to explore and then see how, what would make sense for us to adapt, like, to Hong Kong.

 

[Chris Mack]

I think, you know, to where we've, where you've identified some of the best practises is actually reflecting on where does support fit almost in this different stages of the employee life cycle, if you, if you really think about it that way. And then you reflect upon the support that, like you said, is already existing, but for other caregiver roles. I think it's important.

 

And the point that we're really trying to hone in on is this ageing population. And as much as we're focussing on more common caregiver roles, like parental caregiving, caregivers for the elderly is absolutely, you know, should be a focus point because we're already in the super age category in many places. I'm going to put you on the spot a little bit because we spoke a little bit, a lot around the workplace support.

 

And I actually want to specifically highlight the support for managers as well. That's a really key one, because we're very focused on providing that support, but very similarly, who's supporting the supporters, who's caring for the caregivers in that sense with the managers. So the question I wanted to put to you is with your own experiences and your own journey of trying to navigate, you know, looking after the elderly, what would your sort of message, almost of hope, I guess, for people who are in similar positions, what advice would you give to them who are trying to navigate that themselves and find that journey?

 

[Grace Cheng]

Yeah, I remember, you know, when I was caring for my grandparents, like I was working at a fair employment agency, and I'm super grateful to have very, very supportive managers and bosses, board members. They know that, you know, sometimes I do need to take time off to go to the hospital to make sure I get in before, you know, the end of the visiting hours of the public hospital. So they allow me that flexibility.

 

And I think the key is also how they've been very, very empathetic, like to my situation. They never make me feel like, oh, you need to work those hours back or like, I mean, of course I did. Yeah, like, but then they show me that, oh, like this is, they understand that at that point of time, that is really my priority.

 

And and their support really enabled me to continue like staying in that job and caring for my grandparents. Of course, at the time we were a very small startup, so we may not like have a lot of the resources to have employee assistance programme and all sorts of benefit. But I think, like being kind and empathetic, they don't cost anything.

 

And I encourage, you know, managers to, you know, have that approach. But of course, I understand for not every one of us may have the luck to become a caregiver. So we may not necessarily know or understand what's going through in your employees journey.

 

But so I think having more knowledge and having more understanding about this whole caregiving experience, that could also be a start, like for those who have been so lucky that they never have to be a caregiver. So I've been very lucky to have been invited to some companies to do talks on to educate people about what is actually caregiving. Are you a caregiver?

 

Because I think some of us may just feel like, oh, I'm just being a good daughter, which is just being a granddaughter. So they don't necessarily know that they actually qualify to seek help. So I think as a manager, like if they also are not aware of what's available in a company, then it would make it quite hard for them to tell their direct report.

 

So I think that's the other side is the more education and information that they can equip themselves with.

 

[Chris Mack]

I really love and appreciate that kindness and empathy don't cost anything. And I think that goes out to those that support caregivers as well as caregivers for themselves, having almost that self-kindness and self-empathy as well. Because it's all about giving and giving and giving, isn't it?

 

There's got to be an element of bringing it back to you. So I think that's a great message to all, really. And so that actually wraps up the questions that we have.

 

There is one that we do like to sort of finish off and we like to ask all of our guests is, what do you think the biggest way we can make a ripple of change throughout society is?

 

[Grace Cheng]

Yeah, that's a hard question. I did put some time into thinking about it. Because I think when it comes to any kind of change, it's always uncomfortable.

 

Because yeah, change in nature is uncomfortable. And sometimes it's easier to embrace the status quo. Like, oh, we already have parental support.

 

Why do we need to think about elder care support? But I think having that courage to take a chance on people, on new ideas, I think that's something I think could really contribute to more change in society. As you mentioned, HL has only been around for a year.

 

We're still very, very new. But I've been very, very fortunate to have a lot of people taking a chance on me, volunteer supporting me. I got to speak at Titus Tenor Women.

 

I got to be on your podcast. So I think those are all very, very helpful. And to continue to encourage changemakers to continue on this path, to continue to scale our impact, to continue to grow.

 

So yeah, I think that would be something I hope more of us could take that leap of faith.

 

[Chris Mack]

Absolutely. I think that's a great wrap up message for the whole podcast. So that covers it up.

 

Thank you so much. Thank you for being on today's episode. And a big thank you again, Grace, for joining us for discussion.

 

It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you, Chris. Thank you.