Employee Resource Groups | Up for Discussion with Fyiona Yong

In today’s episode we are joined by Fyiona Yong, a pioneering executive coach in Asia, specialising in diversity, equity, and inclusion. She is also the podcast host of The Thriving Misfits, a two-time TEDx speaker, and the author of the acclaimed book, "How to Thrive as a Misfit."
 
In this episode, we delve into:
 
-    Fyiona's perspective on how Employee Resource Groups (ERGs) can effectively foster diversity, equity, and inclusion within organisations.
-    The unique challenges ERGs face in the Asian context, including cultural sensitivities.
-    The importance of ERGs moving beyond performative gestures to drive genuine change.
-    Exploring how ERGs can evolve to address intersectionality and social mobility, shifting the conversation from identity markers to systemic change.
-    Strategies for engaging leadership in ERGs, emphasising the role of passionate committee members.
 
Join us as we explore Fyiona's insights on leveraging ERGs to drive meaningful change and promote inclusive workplaces. Tune in now!

[Janet Ledger] (0:16 - 1:47)
Hi, my name is Janet Ledger and I'm the CEO at Community Business. I will be your podcast host for today's episode of Up for Discussion and today we're really excited to be Up for Discussion with Fiona Yeung. Fiona is recognised as one of the pioneering executive coaches in Asia, specialising in diversity, equity, inclusion or DEI.
 
She is also the podcast host of The Thriving Misfits, a two-time TEDx speaker and the author of the acclaimed book How to Thrive as a Misfit. With over 14 years of corporate experience at Royal Dutch Shell, Fiona excelled in pivotal roles across finance and digital transformation, including her appointment as the youngest global head of customer operations in the company. In 2017, Fiona transitioned into entrepreneurship, leveraging her extensive experience to empower leaders and organisations as an executive coach, keynote speaker on generational and cultural DEI and a trainer for corporations and business schools.
 
Her perspectives on diversity, equity and inclusion, as well as leadership, have been prominently featured in esteemed publications such as Forbes and the Financial Times. Fiona has extensive experience in setting up, facilitating and growing employee resource groups. So, in today's conversation, we're going to dive a little deeper in TRGs and their roles in organisations.
 
So, thanks for joining us again and wow, that's just such an amazing CV. So, we're thrilled to have you here.
 
[Fyiona Yong] (1:48 - 1:49)
Thanks so much for having me, Janet.
 
[Janet Ledger] (1:50 - 2:04)
So, let's just get cracking. So, the very first question we've got is, can you please share your perspective on the role of ERGs in fostering diversity, equity and inclusion with organisations and how can they be the most effective?
 
[Fyiona Yong] (2:05 - 5:37)
All right. So, maybe a little step back here. My experience with ERGs actually started when I kicked off my career in Shell.
 
So, I was working out of the refinery in Germany, I have to say. So, as you can imagine, I'm in this male-dominated environment, a triple minority threat. I was the only Asian, I was female and definitely the youngest.
 
So, in that space, I always felt a little bit like a misfit and I wanted to see whether or not there is a group out there in the organisation who I can join and not only join, but also potentially support. So, I've heard then that there is a Young Graduates Network at Shell and I signed up to become part of the committee. So, not only was I a member, but I really wanted to make a difference by joining them and also trying to help the other graduates have a voice in the organisation.
 
So, along my career, I started off in an ERG with Young Graduates and then I moved into a Women's Network as part of a member in Germany and then I was also the founder and the first president for the Women's Inclusion Network in Shell Hong Kong. So, that was in 2016 and I would say that's the first time that I've gotten to know community business and community business was such a huge support to actually help us establish our Women's Inclusion Network. So, how can they be most effective?
 
I would say definitely it requires leadership backing. So, one of the reasons why we were, I guess, successful and we were able to kick off within just three months of planning and preparation is because we had leaders in the organisation who were extremely and genuinely involved and also they felt that this is something that we need to do and it's not just part of marketing. And not only that, we also had leaders from different parts of the organisation, including HR, including legal, from the business and myself as well as head of operations.
 
We were part of the committee to make sure that we can drive not only, you know, informative sessions but create a change in the organisation and create a space where we have members who can feel free to speak up without the fear of negative consequences. So, one of the ways to make it most effective, I believe, is that an ERG should not be driven by HR. So, if it's driven by passionate individuals who are really, you know, genuinely passionate about supporting one another, about the cause, I think this is how we can really establish an effective ERG.
 
And the other thing is also that we needed to have clear goals. Our why needed to be quite clear. So, having that committee, you know, not jumping right into launching the network but really preparing ourselves properly, making sure we get the funding, making sure that we also find allies externally, like community business, inviting community business, in fact, to share with us in our inaugural launch event what is the business case in having a women's inclusion network in an organisation.
 
So, those elements, I would say, definitely would help an ERG to become effective.
 
[Janet Ledger] (5:38 - 5:49)
Wonderful. And on the flip side of that, what do you see some of the common challenges that ERGs face are, particularly in the context of cultural differences across Asia?
 
[Fyiona Yong] (5:50 - 7:32)
Right. So, I've had the opportunity to join ERGs outside of Asia and then also within Asia, and I found that, of course, there is a little bit of a cultural hesitation to address certain topics, you know, due to cultural sensitivities. For example, discussing gender roles openly in workplaces can still feel a little bit taboo in certain parts of this region.
 
But I think what's really important is that we address this by really framing conversations around shared values like equity, like fairness, opportunity. Everyone wants to feel valued and recognised and respected and ultimately, of course, driving business success. So, when people are happy in the workplace, we will create happier customers.
 
All of that will lead to a great bottom line impact. So, making sure that we address these kind of conversations that actually really help to bridge the cultural differences while we're still fostering the dialogue. And another challenge is, of course, ensuring that our ERG initiatives also resonate locally.
 
So, I think what's really important is that when I was supporting, for example, one of my clients to establish an ERG within the region, we wanted to also ensure that the individual chapters, the individual countries, so the local chapters could actually localise their initiatives to make sure that it has the biggest impact because we can't just follow the global or the regional DEI strategies. So, we needed to make sure that every chapter also owns their framework, their initiatives and their strategies.
 
[Janet Ledger] (7:33 - 7:53)
Yeah, I know that, you know, I was involved in ERGs in Australia, which is where I originally started my career and ended my corporate career in Hong Kong. And to assume that you can just lift, you know, a sort of a sort of head office strategy and put it in another cultural context is setting yourself up for failure, I think.
 
[Speaker 3] (7:54 - 7:55)
So, yeah, it's really important.
 
[Janet Ledger] (7:56 - 8:16)
Yeah, yeah. And just on that, and I guess as well, another thing that you can tend to see is we don't want to be just checking boxes. So, how can ERGs make sure that they're not just performative and they're actually driving genuine change in an organisation?
 
[Fyiona Yong] (8:17 - 10:46)
Right. You know, I really love that question because I also always say that for me, when I run workshops, when I do talks, it's not supposed to just be informative, but I really want others to implement what they have learned, what they have heard. So, during my time, for example, as the president of the Women's Inclusion Network at Shell, it's also moving beyond just planning events and having conversations, panel discussions, but really focusing on tangible outcomes, so measurable outcomes.
 
So, one of the things that we've done is work very closely with our human resources department, first of all, also needing to understand the demographics, the data and the facts. And for example, what's the percentage of female leadership in the organisation? And one of the things that we did beyond just planning events is to really advocate, for example, for improved maternity leave policies.
 
So, at that time, it was 2016, we only had 10 weeks in Hong Kong. And of course, we've already seen in other organisations like in Apple in Hong Kong, they already, yeah, it was 14 weeks. So, we kind of like brainstormed and had discussions with that, also with senior management, with HR, and really advocated for improved maternity leave policies, which we were able to later implement as well.
 
So, that's definitely one of the key success stories that I'm really proud about. And I think it's also really making sure that we consistently collaborate with senior leaders, with the C-suite to understand, you know, how can we support female representation, especially in management roles? So, one of the reasons why we also got HR involved and to get the data in is because there was this perception within my colleagues that they felt we had enough female representation management roles, but that's just representing those management roles that were visible in the office.
 
Whereas, if you look at, you know, organisations like Shell and other matrix organisations, there are global roles that are maybe higher ranked, and typically they were taken up by our male colleagues. So, it was really important that we have that data and not just speaking about anecdotes. So, having really hard facts to also showcase that to our fellow colleagues, so that they also get equally engaged and passionate about our cause.
 
[Janet Ledger] (10:47 - 11:36)
Yeah, because it is easy to sort of just, I mean, statistics can show whatever you need them to, right? So, I think it's important, but it's also important to be able to see a healthy pipeline through your organisation with a lot of, you know, just, yeah. So, no, that's so true.
 
So, something that's also been starting to emerge, particularly in light of some of the D&I pushback, is a bit of a shift away from labelling affinity groups or ERGs based on identity markers, and be starting to talk a bit more about social mobility from an intersectional lens. And so, how do you think this is going to impact individuals as well as organisations with that move away from its sort of, you know, identity markers? Right.
 
[Fyiona Yong] (11:36 - 13:39)
You know, the thing is, that's a great thought to have. Although I do recognise working with a lot of organisations now, they're quite at the start of this journey. So, I think for them, it's about making sure that they get things started.
 
So, that's why it's probably a bit easier to use those identity markers to create the ERGs first. But I agree with you. So, one of the reasons why in Shell, we actually called ourselves the Women Inclusion Network is because we wanted to get our male colleagues involved as well.
 
And the whole topic around intersectionality, right, I'm super passionate about that, because I always call myself a triple minority threat. Although now I can't say, you know, back in the days, back maybe like five, 10 years ago, millennials were always being labelled as entitled, lazy, and yeah. Nowadays, we don't talk about millennials anymore.
 
Now it's the Gen Z. But at that stage, I was, I would say I'm the triple minority threat. But nowadays, you know, it's really about looking at intersectionality.
 
It's basically like a piece of puzzle, or it's like pieces of a puzzle. And when we look at it that way, it really incorporates all of the aspects of a person's identity, right? It allows us to really be a three dimensional human being.
 
That's always what I like to say. So definitely, I would say, once the ERGs have been established, I think the next level, the next step is really to look at it from an intersectional lens, really focusing on that and shifting the conversation away from boxes to systems. So I mean, for individuals, this really means that we are acknowledging that overlapping identities, like I said, like gender, ethnicity, socioeconomic status, it really shapes our experiences.
 
And, of course, it makes it even more complex. But then again, that's the beauty of as a human being, right? That one size fits all approach just doesn't work.
 
[Janet Ledger] (13:40 - 15:01)
Yeah, because I mean, I feel it's something that's been lost along the way, in conversations around D&I, that's potentially feeding a backlash. You know, aside from the sort of geopolitical things that are going on is that D&I is something that's for minorities and for specific identity markers. And of course, that's just not the case.
 
So, you know, it's finding those ways to get the message through that it's actually providing that level of playing field for everybody, you know, regardless of all of those things that intersect in our identities. So, you know, I think it's certainly a time for reflection. Yeah.
 
So what have you seen work really well for engaging leadership in ERGs? Because you said earlier in the conversation how important it is. And I mean, I'm an absolute firm believer in that, that if you haven't got, you know, we sort of speak to a lot of companies around where do I start?
 
And, you know, I mean, it's that sort of healthy balance of top down and bottom up. But if your leaders aren't there, you know, you're really going to struggle. So, you know, what have you seen work well for engaging leadership support for ERGs?
 
[Fyiona Yong] (15:02 - 17:26)
Well, I feel that definitely you need to have individuals on the committee who are genuinely passionate about this topic. So whether it's a women's inclusion network, whether it's an LGBTQ plus network, generations networks. Nowadays, I'm working a lot with generations ERGs.
 
You need to have committee members, maybe even the leader of that ERG to be absolutely passionate, genuinely passionate about it. And it's not just doing it for their CV. It's not just doing it for marketing purposes, but it's really something that they feel is a selfless deed.
 
And you really need to have someone like that to drive it. And I would say that that also helps to influence the leadership team. So of course, everyone knows it's good to have something like that.
 
But I think it's important for us also to, as committee members, to also highlight, for example, what's the return on investment, because we do need some sort of funding, right, to organize events, to organize panel discussions. I think this is really important to also highlight how gender diversity could impact, let's say, team performance, innovation. And that's the reason why we invited community business, because you have the data, you have the facts there.
 
And I think I would definitely recommend any committee who is trying to launch an ERG in their organization to speak to community business or any other NGOs who are able to support them to also have an external perspective, that external lens. I think that was really helpful for us. And the other thing is also to share how other organizations are being successful, successfully driving, let's say, gender equity, because they have an ERG.
 
So really bringing in the stories, real-life stories, and also highlighting that we're actually looking beyond just what's happening in the organization. So it's not only just supporting, let's say, the female colleagues in our company, but it's also how can we bring this beyond Shell or beyond the organization by, for example, linking up with other ERGs from different industries, different companies, and really creating that synergy and best practice sharing. I think all of that would definitely influence leaders to be on board with it.
 
[Janet Ledger] (17:27 - 17:46)
Yeah. And I mean, that sort of leads nicely into the next question around how they serve as a platform for personal development and empowerment for the members that are in there. So have you seen some lovely examples of how that does help develop individuals and empower them within their organizations?
 
[Fyiona Yong] (17:47 - 19:36)
Yeah. I mean, when I work with ERG committee members, they're absolutely passionate about what they're doing. And not only that, they're able to really have that voice on behalf of their colleagues.
 
I think that makes them extremely proud. That polishes up, of course, their storytelling skills, their influencing skills. And I always remember my first role in the committee of the graduates network.
 
I was in my early 20s. I had never had an opportunity to speak to senior management. And our committee, we were able to actually involve senior management, even get their support to launch a separate employee survey, employee engagement survey, just for the next generation, for the millennials.
 
So being able to influence the senior leaders, getting that exposure, right. Of course, we polished up our organizing skills, project management skills, because all of these things, we're doing it as an extracurricular. Right.
 
So you really need to be passionate about what you're doing. And I think it's also a great way to connect with senior leaders or people who you would never really work with in the workplace, and maybe even gain mentorship. So I'm still connected with senior leaders from my previous organization.
 
And I'm not only getting their mentorship, but also they feel that they can equally learn from me as well. So I think that's a great way, a win-win situation for both the ERGs or the committee, especially, who are heavily involved. And I must say, it's really selfless what they are all doing, right?
 
Because this is on top of their day-to-day tasks, and they're already overloaded, usually.
 
[Janet Ledger] (19:37 - 20:29)
Yeah, yeah. I mean, it was, I mean, I know that's my story. I was involved in a few of the different ERGs, certainly when I was working in Australia.
 
And then when I moved up to Hong Kong, I thought it out because, you know, it was just something that I think the thing is, is that you can sit back and on the empowerment side of it, you can sit back in an organization and hope that it changes or complain or anything like that. Like being part of the ERGs is part of being part of a solution, not a problem. Yeah.
 
I absolutely agree. Yeah. You know, like I sort of, yeah, I sort of used to get a lot of benefit out of being a part of them.
 
So, and just on that, are there any success stories or examples where you've seen an ERG make a significant impact on a workplace culture?
 
[Fyiona Yong] (20:30 - 22:39)
Yeah. So I've already mentioned about how we were able as the Women's Inclusion Network in Shell Hong Kong to influence policy changes around maternity leaves. But now that I'm also supporting my clients to establish ERGs, what I'm also seeing is that they're able to, so what makes me really proud is that I'm helping a company to establish their first women's in business network in APAC.
 
And then not only that, now what we can see is that every single country, the chapters, they are independently going ahead, they're driven, they want to initiate changes. And it's just really, yeah, it makes me really proud to see that, that from, you know, from inception that they're now not just following what the regional committee is actually doing, but they're actually going ahead with their own practices, with their own ideas, because as I mentioned, we do really need to localize the initiatives to make it impactful, right? The other thing, what I'm also hearing, for example, from a very reputable bank, a very prominent bank, they have a Generations ERG.
 
So, what I'm hearing is that they have launched mentoring programs, reverse mentoring programs, and they have also seen that their employee engagement surveys have really improved. So, people feel that they are working in a company where there is positive culture in place, where people from different walks of life, different identities, they're being respected. So, being able to get involved, I think it's a really amazing way to also see, to be the change that you want to see, right?
 
Not just complaining, but really getting involved. So, that makes me really happy to hear also from my clients, but now also seeing that the Women's Inclusion Network in Shell is how many years old now? It's eight years old now.
 
And that really makes me proud after leaving Shell, you know, eight years ago. So, it's really great to be able to leave that legacy behind. So, that's definitely also my personal success story.
 
[Janet Ledger] (22:44 - 23:35)
So, it's good that you say that, because you mentioned that, because one of the things we see a lot in our work is that you get a very enthusiastic sponsor and some very passionate people within ERGs. And then for whatever reason, just in terms of career change, the leader goes, or ERG leaders go, and everything just falls in a heap. So, why do you think it's stuck in Shell, you know, because, you know, it's not always the case.
 
And I mean, I know where I used to work, you know, there were changes in the way they structured and they probably delocalised and centralised a lot more. And it's sort of, I think, I believe in my humble opinion, that traction was lost outside of the parent, outside of the home country. So, why do you think it's stuck?
 
[Fyiona Yong] (23:37 - 25:59)
So, one of the reasons could also be that you have a committee that set up the ERGs, and they are absolutely passionate about it. They have that big picture goal, that dream, and that probably didn't get cascaded down. So, when these people move, for whatever reason, because their roles have changed, they move outside of the company.
 
Or they just couldn't handle that additional workload anymore. So, I think that passion needs to be contagious. So, everyone in the committee and even members need to feel empowered that they also have a part to play to drive that ERG.
 
I think this is really about making sure everyone feels accountable and would take ownership beyond just the committee. So, the committee, that's the one who would drive, initiate things, launch the ERG, set the foundation, create the initial strategies, but ultimately is also passing on that passion, that baton to the next generation. And I feel that that's really important.
 
And for me, I'm not only involved in ERGs, I've also been involved in creating communities. So, in Hong Kong, for example, I created a community called the Side Hustlers. So, supporting individuals who have a daytime job, but they also have a personal passion and they launched a side hustle.
 
And it's really creating that space where people feel that they can speak about it because, as you know, in Hong Kong, lots of banks, a lot of people are in finance and banking, not necessarily allowed to have a side hustle. So, it's creating that safe space for them. And what's really important is to give everyone an opportunity to, for example, lead a session.
 
I think that's really important. Something that I'm now seeing as well, now that I've moved to Malaysia, I'm the leader and the founder of a Lean In Circle, but it's not my circle, it's our circle. And I think that's really important.
 
And maybe sometimes it gets stuck in other organizations, you know, that drive or something like that, because that person who has initiated it, who has launched it, has moved on. And maybe that passion has not been passed on, or people didn't feel empowered to also be able to drive it. Yeah.
 
[Janet Ledger] (25:59 - 27:04)
Yeah. It's very dangerous in leadership, I think, as once again, just my humble opinion, it's dangerous in leadership for so much to be dependent on you. You know, like I always feel that you should be able to walk away from something and have it stay intact.
 
You know, obviously the next people are going to put their flavour on things, but you know, it's important that people sort of own and feel, like you say, empowered. So, you know, that they've actually got the autonomy to be able to make decisions for themselves and own what it is that you're doing. So, yeah.
 
So, you talked about some of your experience around setting up new ERGs, and it's a question we get asked a lot. And I also want to say thank you for giving us a plug. In that, so it's always, we're always grateful when people give us a plug for the work that we do.
 
But if someone is coming to you asking you for advice on starting up a new ERG, what do you tell them in terms of where to start?
 
[Fyiona Yong] (27:05 - 29:59)
It really starts with the committee members. So, you really need to have a committee who is driven. You probably need to have someone who heads that one first, who is extremely passionate about that cause, making sure that the committee is able to, of course, we already mentioned, influence leaders to get them on board.
 
So, one of the suggestions that I always like to make is to involve these specific leaders, especially in the inaugural committee set up, getting them involved, getting them to be hands on as well. And then together really sit down to start with why, really defining the purpose, having that clear purpose of the ERG. Why does it exist?
 
What is the aim that you're actually trying to achieve? And the other thing, apart from having support from the leaders, but also engaging other allies. So, perhaps as a women's inclusion network, you might want to involve male allies from the start.
 
So, in our committee, we actually had two male colleagues to also share their input because again, we didn't want to just be the women's network. We want to be an inclusive network where everyone has a voice. So, getting allies involved from the start.
 
And I think it's also about recognizing the small wins, whether it's running a successful event where we get really positive feedback afterwards, or even like a really big win, like a policy change, right? So, celebrating every small wins, making people and especially the committee members feel proud that they're able to create that impact. And it's actually something beyond their job scope.
 
And this is something that I hope that they will be proud about. And it's also where leaders, so the managers of these committee members should also acknowledge that, right? In, for example, performance reviews, I always made sure that, for example, my committee members, I would write a feedback, especially during year-end appraisal for their managers, because I see all the hard work that they're putting in apart from, you know, doing their day-to-day job, but they're actually super involved in, you know, extracurricular activities.
 
So, I think this really needs to be highlighted also to the managers of these committee members for them to acknowledge the additional task or the additional commitment that they're taking on. So, I think this is extremely important. And again, really, the leadership support is crucial.
 
You do need a little bit of funding, of course, to create these events to make it impactful. And yeah, bringing external perspective in, whether it's through community business, whether it's through engaging or liaising with other ERG networks from other organizations, really making sure that we keep up.