Navigating Mental Health Crises | Up for Discussion with Jess Hulton and Désirée Fong
On this World Suicide Prevention Day, we invite you to join us for a heartfelt and important episode of Up for Discussion. We are honored to welcome Jess Hulton, Director and Founder of The New Normal (TNN) charity in Hong Kong, and Désirée Fong, Director of Equity and Inclusion on the TNN HK board.
In this episode, Jess and Désirée share their personal journeys that led them to establish TNN, a charity dedicated to challenging mental health stigma and providing peer support to those in need. With over 1,200 individuals benefiting from their services, TNN is making a significant impact in the community.
We will explore critical topics, including:
- The importance of peer support in mental health
- The cultural challenges surrounding mental health discussions in Hong Kong
- The alarming rise in suicide rates and the factors contributing to this crisis
- Practical strategies for preventing suicide and supporting those in distress
Jess and Désirée emphasise that suicide is one of the most preventable issues we face, and they share their insights on how open conversations and empathetic listening can save lives.
Tune in for this essential discussion as we shed light on mental health, the power of community, and the steps we can all take to support one another.
If you or someone you know is struggling with thoughts of self-harm or suicide, we encourage you to reach out for help. Your mental health matters, and you are not alone.
Resources:
Hong Kong: Caritas 24-hour Crisis Line 18288
Singapore: Institute of Mental Health 6389 2222
India: 1Life +91 78930 78930
Mainland China: Crisis 800–810–1117 (for landline callers) or 010–8295–1332 (for mobile and VoIP callers)
Philippines: National Center for Mental Health Crisis Hotline 1553
Japan: TELL Lifeline 0800-300-8355
Other resources: https://www.iasp.info/suicidalthoughts/
Video Transcript
[Chris Mack] (0:16 - 2:54)
Hello, I'm Chris, Programme Manager for Wellbeing at Community Business, and I'll be your podcast host for this episode. Today, we're delighted to be Up for Discussion with Jess Houghton, Director and Founder of the New Normal TNN charity, Hong Kong, and Desiree Fung, Director of Equity and Inclusion on the TNN HK board. Welcome to you both.
Thank you very much. No, thank you. So we'll start off with some introductions.
After caring for a terminally ill father during COVID-19, Jess experienced the importance of peer support when she realized she needed someone to say, I was you, and I promise it will get better. In 2021, coupled with Desiree, they started a mission to challenge mental health stigma by starting their own mental health peer support groups, which led to the foundation of TNN Hong Kong in January 2022. TNN HK now offers various groups addressing mental health, grief, students, LGBTQ+, cancer, and more to over 1,200 plus people across Hong Kong so far, all led by individuals with lived experiences.
In 2023, they launched a first of its kind free Cantonese mental health peer support group, which has led to many more Cantonese groups. Jess holds a degree in sociology and criminology and is currently a master's student in psychology. She is an associate tutor in suicide first aid.
Welcome, Jess. Thank you for having me. Thank you.
And Desiree. Desiree is a Cantonese and English peer support group host with a background in human rights research and advocacy. Desiree's personal journey, marked by struggles with depression and grief, has driven her to join a charity that provides accessible mental health support to those in need, which led her to serve as the director of equity and inclusion on the TNN HK board.
Her passion lies in creating a secure and supportive environment where individuals can gather, share their experiences, and connect with empathetic peers while receiving the care and compassion they deserve. And on a lighter note, Desiree has a deep love for cats and is fluent in five languages. Thank you very much, both of you, for joining us on the discussion.
So I know we've just gone through introductions, so I won't get you to introduce yourselves. But I would love to explore your motivation and also your volunteering with the new normal Hong Kong. Where are we now?
Where have you been? And where is it kind of going? Yeah, of course.
[Jess Hulton] (2:55 - 4:43)
So I'm originally from Manchester, accent will give us away. But I found myself back in the UK during the pandemic, but expectedly caring for my dad as he reached the end of his life. And I found the experience deeply isolating and distressing.
It was a very lonely period of time. And after his death, I sought help for my mental health for the first time in my life. And it's what I would describe as a really bad period of my mental health during that period.
And I approached our public system and was told the often sadly familiar story that I'd be waiting nine months to get any kind of care for free through the National Health Service. And I, by chance, was on Instagram. I came across a man who I now know as Ben May.
And he and his friend Jack, through a shared bond of losing their dads, had started free peer support groups online at the time. So I joined their groups online. And I just realized that within peer support, I could find someone who looked like me, who spoke like me, who had the same experience, and get that support and empathy that I needed at a time where I really struggled to find help.
And shortly after, like about four months after actually, I moved to Hong Kong. And again, it was sort of pandemic time here. I was really curious to know what was available for people here in terms of accessible peer-led support.
For myself, actually, I just wanted to start a peer support group. And I found there are some really good work done by charities here. But I struggled to find exactly what I was looking for.
So I spoke with local charities. I spoke with people in Hong Kong and shared this idea that maybe we should start some peer support groups here, really for myself at the time. And then by chance, I actually met Desiree at the gym.
Maybe you can take over from there.
[Desiree Fong] (4:43 - 7:32)
Yeah, absolutely. So again, I met Jess at the gym. And then one day, we just went out for drinks.
And I said, you know, what are you doing in Hong Kong? And then she shared her story of, you know, her group with her dad and wanting to start an organization or a community that offers mental health support. To which I responded, you're white, Jess, you're blonde, and you don't speak Cantonese.
I assume you don't speak Cantonese. So how on earth are you going to start a mental health initiative in a heavily stigmatized Chinese cultural setting? And very thankfully, she was very receptive to my feedback.
So I guess we just kind of, you know, started the New Normal Charity Hong Kong journey from there on. But more personally, when, you know, when Jess started to introduce this concept of peer support, I really didn't have an idea of what it entailed. To me, it was more for anyone who's struggling with addiction or alcoholism, never really considered it for mental health.
But and then as we started to, you know, talk to people within my peers, my Hong Kong friends, and you know, in the wider local Hong Kong communities, we were trying to figure out what peer support is, but also what is mental health in Cantonese. So from then on, we worked with different local Hong Kong organizations, local Hong Kong volunteers, to really navigate how we should start a peer support in Cantonese. And even for myself as well, I lost three of my very close family members during the pandemic and a year before the pandemic.
I didn't really know how to deal with my own grief. And through actually this journey of how to reinitiate this community, this group really helped me to verbalize my own feelings about grief, bereavement in Cantonese. And also it's starting to help me as well to communicate that with my family.
So it's been a whirlwind of a journey, I'd say. It's not been easy. There's all, you know, lots of roller coasters.
But we are, you know, we are pleasantly surprised by the amount of people who want to volunteer their time with us. You know, we're seeing, you know, growth in our charity. We're expanding different Cantonese peer support groups because we've seen demands for different sorts of mental health topics.
So, yeah, I'd say that's kind of how we met, you know, my involvement in this. And I'm really excited to continue to see our growth and journey with TNA.
[Chris Mack] (7:38 - 8:06)
So it was great to hear in terms of the journey that you've taken. Like I said, started off with an initial conversation, growing and growing. But there is a particular area I know TNN works a bit more in, and that's actually around suicide awareness.
So I'd love to hear a little bit about your experiences in what that's been like and what TNN's involvement is within that space.
[Desiree Fong] (8:06 - 11:53)
Absolutely. I can start first. So before we delve into the topic of suicide, I want to kind of set us a context in why we want to focus on suicide prevention.
So for some context, you know, Hong Kong, like I said earlier on with my own experience, it's very hard to understand how we communicate and verbalize our own emotions and our feelings. Research has shown that there are low mental health literacy rates in Hong Kong. So obviously that would make to people not even realizing that they're going through something and which, you know, too late.
We also have a language, a culture which heavily stigmatizes mental health. Media plays a massive role in the way we understand mental health because obviously we have very low literacy rate in understanding mental health, which often attributes to violence in media. So with that in mind, a lot of people then don't want to associate themselves with going through something.
So we have to put a facade on and really embrace that kind of just get on with it kind of attitude. And that's also very intrinsic within our Chinese culture as well, having saving face, having that reputation. And I'm also, of course, talking in general terms and on my own experience as well.
So because of this, people don't really know where to go for help or really understanding what's going on within their own challenges. So I guess now moving to a suicide, there's actually a recent studies by Samaritans for Gender Hong Kong that recently published that Hong Kong has the highest suicide rate in the past few years. And a lot of the factors that they were kind of potentially linking to were economic downturn right now in Hong Kong, especially post-pandemic.
We also have elderly community who feel more lonely than ever, especially with the recent immigration wave as well. We also have students who are having more and more academic pressure and coupled with not knowing how to verbalize our own feelings, not having the support. So we can really understand the challenges that Hong Kong is facing in terms of mental health, which leads to suicide.
Now, in terms of TNN, within our peer support groups, we have experienced attendees who have mentioned these challenges and really want to help themselves and really want to speak to someone so that they don't feel lonely in their own journey, which is why we recognize this issue and we really know that suicide prevention is something that we can really help within the mental health ecosystem in Hong Kong. So I'm currently being trained to be a suicide first aid tutor here.
And one thing I can absolutely tell you is suicide is one of the most preventable forces that we can, you know, in our community, we can help and support do. And it's anyone. And you don't have to be a professional to talk about suicide.
It takes no more than five minutes to break a break down a suicide plan. Or, you know, in my own experience as a host as well, you know, all someone wants to do or someone wants is for someone to listen, really to listen and to make sure they feel like they're not alone. And there's empathetic space for them to really feel like their feelings are validated.
[Chris Mack] (11:57 - 12:45)
Desiree, you explored cultural factors, you explored almost historical factors, and that all contributes to the challenge. You've also really identified the aspect of it being preventable. But also, one of the key bits was why we should be focusing on it.
Now, if the if the ask and the reason is so strong, and to continue that conversation, the challenge, but maybe looking at maybe some of the individual challenges, in your experience as a as a, an SFA tutor, what do you find are some of the common challenges? Why aren't people having these conversations about suicide and, and really actively contributing towards suicide prevention? What are some of those individual challenges?
[Jess Hulton] (12:47 - 14:30)
Part of the stigma is, in some way, we as a society look at people who experience thoughts of suicide as being different to us, and over there, and there's odds, and there's something wrong with them. That is absolutely not the case. One in five people in their lifetime will think about suicide.
That's one in five people at any given moment, one in 20. And that perception of the other and that you're different, makes people feel like they're going to be judged, they're going to be shamed. I reflect on conversations that I've had with my mum over the years about suicide, where she'll say to me, like, why did they do that?
Like, what's wrong with them? And it took someone close to her, her own age, who she saw in herself, losing her life to suicide for her then to say, wow, like that person was in a huge amount of pain. And then that became a bit more tangible and real.
If you've never had the exposure, it's over here, it doesn't affect me, it's got nothing to do with me. The sad fact is it will affect us at some point in our lives. We also contribute to stigma in many ways in day to day.
If we just pick up on language, day to day we'll hear people say, commit suicide, when in reality, no one in Hong Kong has committed suicide since the 60s, because that's when it was decriminalised. People have died by suicide since then, no one has committed suicide. So in our day to day language, we're reinforcing the negative stereotypes around suicide, which then when someone does have that courage to speak, there's so much fear that they won't be met with the compassion and support that they need in that moment.
And that's what can lead people to a point where they don't seek help until they're in crisis.
[Chris Mack] (14:34 - 15:13)
We've now mentioned and we've talked about some of the challenges that we face, cultural, individual, how strong the stigma is, and it sometimes can feel a little bit overwhelming. We're identifying challenges and then one of the questions, because it's so challenging, is it even possible? You've already hinted at something Desiree, the power of listening, something we all do.
And I think that all contributes to how we prevent. So I'd love to hear some of your experiences of where you've had these conversations that have contributed to suicide prevention. Should we start off with you?
Yeah, of course.
[Jess Hulton] (15:14 - 18:00)
So the first time I ever had a conversation where a friend called me to tell me that they were thinking about suicide, I had absolutely no idea what to do. I was googling my phone at exactly the same time as being on the phone to them thinking, I have no idea what to say about this. Since then, I have learned some things and I reflect on conversations because I've spoke with friends.
I spoke with attendees of welfare support groups when they've been thinking about suicide. And my reflections are that there are a lot of myths. The first myth is around there's one singular cause of suicide.
And when I think about conversations I've had, my friends have pointed to multiple things that were going on in their lives at the same time, whether that was relationship challenges, financial problems, challenges with drugs and alcohol. It's not one single factor. It's a complicated interplay.
Secondly, that if we ask someone about suicide, it will put the idea in their head. From teaching suicide first aid, one of the most common things that comes up when we bring up asking directly about suicide is, I'm going to put the idea in their head or I'm going to offend them. I can't possibly say that to them.
But every bit of research that exists suggests the exact opposite about verbalising that word and asking someone in a way that feels comfortable to you, but directly if they're thinking about suicide. And my personal experiences with friends is when I was talking to them, they wouldn't directly say they were thinking about suicide. They'd say, I feel trapped.
I can't see a way out. I hate my life. They would not say that unless I asked them.
So through research and also through my personal experiences, when we ask someone directly about suicide, we actually give them permission to share and to be truthful, perhaps the first time they've been able to do this. That's another really big myth. And as well, I think that we think if we talk to them about suicide, we are then wholly responsible and we must take action like humans are such solution driven people, but actually really all that person needs in that moment is for you to sit, to truly listen to what they're saying, to try to understand what these things mean for this person and to guide them and support them in seeking the help that they need. I think that we often think that this now becomes my sole responsibility and it's just not the case. All that person needs in that moment is you to listen and to be there.
They don't need you to solve it, you probably can't. I think that stops a lot of people from getting involved in conversations about suicide because we're afraid of doing wrong things, saying wrong things, or not being able to fix it when in fact we can't.
[Chris Mack] (18:01 - 18:38)
Yeah, that empowering and I guess in a way kind of overcoming almost like a bystander effect in a way that we, yeah, we don't want to get involved, but hopefully highlighting we can and actually the simplicity of, and that's not to take away from the effectiveness of it, of being with someone and opening and listening and asking those questions and for someone to feel this is your time to talk, this is your space and I'm right here.
I think that's extremely powerful and I hope people can realize that I can do that. Yeah, Desiree, have you had some experience?
[Desiree Fong] (18:39 - 20:01)
So, obviously, Jess has braved well, that seems to be something that you should know, but just to add on a smaller point, so when I encountered, when I was in a situation with Suicide Prevention, at that point I was actually very thankful that I had completed a Suicide Plus 8 course, so I did have frameworks of knowing how to ask if they're thinking about suicide. So, based on my experience, a lot of people, most people who are thinking about suicide don't actually want to end their lives and I think that's something that it's really important to remember and what they really want is someone to listen and help them to see a future, that there is going to be a future and they're not alone in whatever struggles that they're going through and it is, again, like I said earlier, it can really take just five minutes to help someone dismantle a suicide plan and, you know, now that I'm more equipped with knowing how to ask about suicide and really mention are you thinking about suicide, really help open doors for whoever is in that situation to really verbalize what they truly, what they're truly thinking so that they don't feel more alone than they have done before, and that's just my small addition to what Jess has said.
[Chris Mack] (20:02 - 20:36)
Yeah, no, I think what's, what the kind of follow-on from this is, as complex as we're talking about all the different factors and all there might be some people thinking, oh, that's because you guys are professional, because, you know, you've been mental health practitioners for the last 20 years. Do you mystify that? Do you have to be a professional, mental health professional, counsellor, therapist, whoever, in order to prevent suicide?
[Jess Hulton] (20:37 - 21:15)
Absolutely not. The sad fact is the overwhelming majority of people are not in any contact with mental health services in the year before they die, so truly, if we're going to have any real meaningful impact on suicide figures and rates, we as a community need to upskill ourselves and to have that base level of confidence to engage someone with an empathetic conversation around suicide. We absolutely do not need to be mental health professionals.
In order to do that, we just need to be able to navigate that conversation with compassion and empathy, and I'm not a mental health professional.
[Desiree Fong] (21:16 - 21:38)
And I'm not either, and, you know, it just takes one conversation, it really does, and really destigmatise the whole concept of suicide. One in seven people in Hong Kong and abroad have had mental health challenges in their lifetime, and the more we talk about it, the easier people will be able to open up about it.
[Chris Mack] (21:44 - 23:22)
So, if I can tag on one of my experiences. When I used to work in schools, we worked with a young girl, 13 or 14, and was very lonely and we were concerned she was starting to experience some high risks of presenting issues, and we tried to find what support network, whether she reached out to family, whether she reached out to close friends, whoever it was. It's very difficult for someone who's lonely because they don't have a support network.
One person we did identify was a crossing person, the individual that helps kids cross the road at the end of a school day. They felt comfortable enough to reach out to them, and they were able to actually disclose some of the tough times that were happening. It was actually building up, building up, and they ended up having and experiencing thoughts of suicide.
And we found out that this crossing person was having those conversations, we helped coach them a little bit, and we were able to really help that young girl feel a bit more safe. And hopefully, to this day, they're absolutely fine. That's a crossing person.
And it's amazing, again, the power of listening, having a little bit of a framework, building a little bit of confidence to have those conversations. We've spoken about individuals, we've spoken about what people can do. Let's think about the environment, and let's think about places, and particularly the workplace.
Do you feel that the workplace can do more to drive the mission of suicide prevention?
[Jess Hulton] (23:23 - 24:50)
Yeah, of course. Building workplaces that don't contribute to people's distress, clearly, firstly, but also ensuring that people become aware of the resources that they are able to access at the workplace, and also encourage them to trust in those services. I think the big problem that we see with our attendees is that they don't trust what the workplace is providing, they don't believe it's confidential, they still think they'll be judged.
But more generally, we see people at work, well I mean, I speak for myself, I see people at work more than I see my friends and my family. These people see us perhaps eight hours a day, and you're really in a prime position to recognise the signs of someone thinking about suicide. You can see changes day-to-day in a person, their partner might not notice.
So really upskilling people in the workplace, and getting to know your team, like really getting to know how they are day-to-day, so you can see those changes, and not being afraid to address that in a professional space, because you might feel that it's not appropriate. We see that quite a lot in groups where people might notice changes, but will feel uncomfortable saying that in a workplace. But knowing how to navigate that, doing small things like finding a private space to have that conversation, making that person feel supported and heard, because really the people that you work with are really best placed, compared to some people in your life, to notice changes and be able to ask you about those.
[Chris Mack] (24:51 - 26:27)
I think it's almost a proactive approach as well, isn't it? If you create the environment that is supportive, if you create the wellbeing, but recognise that it still affects people, and we can't be afraid to address that. Desiree, anything you wanted to add on to that?
No, I actually don't. So just to really wrap up the points that we've made, there are so many factors that impact individuals. Those factors can escalate, and they can unfortunately lead to suicidal thoughts, suicidal actions, and unfortunate loss of life.
As much as it affects people, everyone can play a role, whether that's setting the environment, whether that's directly approaching someone, and knowing that it is possible, and knowing that the value that you bring with regards to your listening, your empathy, your compassion, you've just got to take that initial step forward and approach that person, and feel comfortable in an uncomfortable situation to address and ask, because that might be the one thing that actually might save a life.
I think that's a really important message, and thank you both for shining a light. So the final question that we like to ask, I guess, all of our guests, what do you think the biggest way we can make a ripple of change throughout society is?
[Desiree Fong] (26:28 - 27:33)
Yeah, so at TNM, we really believe in compassion and empathy, so really just starting with a fair and simple, how are you? Asking someone how they truly are would really open a lot of doors to whether you're building a relationship with that person, understanding what they're going through, and that really is the initial way of building an empathetic society in Hong Kong, and I'm sure you know this, we all know this, Hong Kong has a very fast-paced rhythm in our society, we tend to forget, for me anyway, what time I eat, how we look after ourselves, but simply just asking someone how are you got them to feel like, oh my gosh, people actually do want to talk about how I'm feeling, and then that will then lead to that person, to asking the other person, how are you doing?
So I guess that simple questioning is a way forward to creating and building an empathetic, compassionate society in Hong Kong.
[Jess Hulton] (27:35 - 28:10)
Yeah, to build on what Desiree was saying about compassion and empathy, I think just the basic recognition of our interconnectedness and the fact that we are a community, and using that to ensure that no one, regardless of their identity, background, social status, social standing, is left without the support and care that they deserve, and the first step for me is recognizing that we are all interconnected, like I'm not a person from Hong Kong, I've moved here, I've still managed to find support in this city, and if start there, we can extend my kindness and compassion to everyone.
[Chris Mack] (28:12 - 28:25)
Thank you both so much. That covers the topics we wanted to talk about in today's episode, and so a big thank you to Jess and Desiree for joining us on Up for Discussion. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Thank you.